Behind the
scenes of the conversations between João and Carlos Wesley about the Methodist
Movement
Odilon Massolar
Chaves
Copyright © 2026, Odilon
Massolar Chaves
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Odilon Massolar Chaves is a retired Methodist pastor, with a doctorate
in Theology and History from the Methodist University of São Paulo.
Son of Rev. Adherico Ribeiro Chaves and Roza Massolar Chaves.
He is married to RoseMary.
He has two daughters: Liliana and Luciana.
His thesis dealt with the Methodist revival in England in the eighteenth
century and its contribution as a paradigm for our days.
Table
of Contents
· Introduction
· The relationship between John and Charles
Wesley
· People of all kinds receive the word with joy
· I'm in big trouble
· His spirit was in flight for all eternity
· And it's almost fashionable to speak well of
us
· I leaned into this scheme for many years
· It's much easier for me to hope than to
despair
· When traveling, which of us draws up his plan
according to reason?
· Save Ireland
· A way to understand each other clearly
· I replied to the Bishop
· Satisfied with John Jones' learning
· I am not entirely satisfied with your
preaching
· Look out for our little ones in Kingswood
whenever you can
· Will you stand side by side?
· He will go where they know his worth
· Preachers and Christian Perfection
· Let me be again an Oxford Methodist
· Duty is all I consider
· The ones that neither you nor I can remedy
· But I easily predicted that there would be
objections to the large amount of salary
· He returned to the group and was a regular
assistant
· Preach as much as you can and no more than
you can
· I left the Orphans' House alone
· Except speaking ill of the other
· They just follow their leaders and do what
they are told
· They should tell him that he has completely
lost himself
· We can agree to disagree
·
Prejudice
did not intervene, nor did Calvinism
· If the Trustees establish the Birstall House
on the Methodist plan, I will sign the deed
· If your opinion is correct
· I do not depend on the doctors, but on the
One who raises the dead
· I do not see that I have any obligation to
obey them beyond what these laws require
· I'm glad you can officiate in the chapels
again
· One can leave a church (which I would advise
in some cases) without leaving the church
· Don't stop those who can and want to
· Providence allowed reckless men three miles from me
· You must leave every day or die
· You can see me on Thursday at Mr. Griffith's
house
· The day of God's power has come
· I'm convinced you'll be just as good
· I hope you keep your rule, to go out every
day,
· The Lord gave, and the Lord took away
============================
Introduction
"Behind the Scenes of the Conversations
Between John and Charles Wesley on the Methodist Movement" is a 64-page
book based on John Wesley's letters to Charles (Charles) Wesley.
"The backstage
of the conversations between John and Charles Wesley reveal a partnership of
deep affection, but also of intense theological and strategic conflicts over
the direction of the Methodist movement. Although they were the two pillars of
leadership, they had very different temperaments and institutional
visions."
It was a fraternal,
respectful, trusting relationship with freedom to think and disagree. In one of
the letters, Wesley said to Carlos: "I will tell my thoughts in all
simplicity and wait for better information. If you agree with me, well; if not,
we may (as Mr. Whitefield used to say) agree to disagree."
There were different
views regarding preachers, sacraments, the Anglican Church, etc., but there was
agreement between the two regarding justification by faith, Christian
perfection, personal experience, Wesleyan quadrilateral, practical faith and
social action, etc.
In a letter to
"Mrs. Charles Wesley," Charles's wife, after his death, Wesley told
her in 1788, "Indeed, to serve you, or your dear family, in all that lies
in my power, will always be a pleasure, dear sister."
An example of a relationship for our days.
The Author
============================
The relationship between John and Charles Wesley
"John's
letters to Charles Wesley reveal a dynamic joint leadership relationship,
marked by deep
affection and theological and practical divergences. Although
John is often portrayed as the public face of Methodism, the correspondence
shows Charles as an essential adviser, revealing his tensions over the
movement's exhausting travels, separations, and directions."[1]
Central
points revealed in the letters:
Co-Leadership and Support:
The letters expose John's dependence on his brother. They shared the burden of persecution and the expansion of revival, often acting as an outlet for each other.
Temperament Differences:
It is evident that John had a more dynamic, managerial and sometimes severe personality. Charles, on the other hand, was the 'sweet singer', kinder and more sociable, which often led him to dampen the conflicts provoked by John.
Family Tensions:
There are revelations about the friction caused by John's personal decisions, such as his troubled marriage to Mary Vazeille (Molly), which Charles strongly opposed for financial and organizational reasons.
Pastoral Concern:
After Charles' death, and in the letters
exchanged in maturity, there was notorious concern for the future of the
family's faith, especially when Charles' son, Samuel Wesley, converted to
Catholicism in 1784. [2]
Agreeing to disagree
Some excerpts from Wesley's letters to
Charles reveal frankness, confidence, and openness to disagree.
Partial to the king
"No man is a good
judge in his own cause. I believe I am reasonably impartial; but you are not
(at least, you have not been for some time) in relation to King Charles I. Come
see what I say. If the worst happens, we can agree to disagree."
Biblical arguments
"But we would be
happy to know for what reasons you believe this is inconsistent with the Word
of God."
Sharing travel itinerary
"My route is this:
Monday, August 14, Witney; Tuesday 15, Gloucester; Wednesday, 16, The Hay;
Thursday and Friday, Brecon; Saturday, Carmarthen (Deo vo/.); Monday, 28,
Bristol".
Sharing difficulties
"I'm
in big trouble. I wrote to Lady Huntingdon (as I wrote to you): 'I tend to
believe that one of us must soon embark on Yorkshire.'
Sharing Susanna Wesley's passing
"Yesterday,
around three in the afternoon, as soon as the Intercession was over, I went to
my mother. I noticed that his pulse was almost lost and his fingers dead; so
that it would be easy to see that his spirit was in flight for all eternity.
After using the Prayer of Praise, I sat down by his bedside, and with three or
four of our sisters, sang a requiem to his parting soul."
Revealing theological maturity
"I leaned into this scheme for many years; but lately I have doubted this more and more: (1) because all the texts which I used to think supported, I now believe prove more or less either absolute disapproval and election, or neither."
Asked if Carlos will
be supporting Wesley
"I am at my
limit in relation to two things — the Church and Christian Perfection. Unless
you and I stay in the gap with a lot of will, the Methodists will abandon both.
Talking is no use. We must act, or we will be taken away. Are you going to stand
side by side?"
A way for them to understand each other clearly
"Some thoughts
occurred to me this morning, which I think are useful to leave, but because it
can be a means of understanding each other clearly, of agreeing as much as
possible and then letting the whole world know about it."
Wesley being frank with Carlos
"If you don't
want or can't help me personally, don't stop those who can and want to. I must
and will save as many souls as I can as long as I live, without worrying about
what might happen when I die."
Giving freedom to
judge
"You will listen
more from time to time and judge accordingly. But, whenever it seems convenient
for me to return, many things remove the doubt. May the God of peace fill you
with all peace and joy in faith! Goodbye".
The
letters reveal a dialogue with frankness and trust between brothers who have
known each other for a long time and love each other and, therefore, have more
freedom with each other:
People of
all kinds receive the word with joy
But people of all
kinds welcome the word with joy. So far, I have so many jobs here that I think
there is no question whether I should go back or not
To your brother
Charles
BRISTOL, April 9,
1739.
DEAR BROTHER CHARLES,
-- Against the next post I will consider your verses. The clergy here are
gladiatorial anirno ad nos affectant viarn. [Phormio of Terence, v. vii. 71:
'Aim at us with gladiatorial intent.'] But people of all kinds welcome the word
with joy. So far, I have so much work here that I think there is no question
whether I should go back or not.
You will listen more
from time to time and judge accordingly. But, whenever it seems convenient for
me to return, many things remove the doubt. May the God of peace fill you with
all peace and joy in faith! Goodbye.
I forgot, I need to
sign the Kingswood Carboneiros School. [Diary, ii. 171n, 239n. Whitefield laid
the first stone on April 2, and by July 10 the school was ready for the roof.]
Then I will accept Mr. Wilson's money.
I'm in big trouble
I'm in great trouble.
I wrote to Lady Huntingdon (as I wrote to you): 'I tend to believe that one of
us must soon embark on Yorkshire.' It was then my mind wishing you were first
To your brother
Charles
LONDON, May 17, 1742
DEAR BROTHER, -- I am
in great trouble. I wrote to Lady Huntingdon (as I wrote to you): 'I tend to
believe that one of us must soon embark on Yorkshire.' It was then my mind
wishing that you would go first; But I was afraid you would think I had turned
off the birth paddle. But when I received his last project I changed my project
and decided not to think about it anymore. I sent a message this morning to
Brentford and Windsor about my preaching there on Thursday, on the way to
Bristol; but in two or three hours I received a letter from Lady Huntingdon,
part of which is as follows:
MY DEAR FRIEND, --
Just the thought of seeing you here fills us with great joy. Poor dear Miss
Helena Cooper is still alive; and, it is very remarkable, at the beginning of
her illness she said, 'I would be glad to see one of them just before he died.'
His eyes with mine overflow with the loving goodness of the Lord, who even
cares about the desires of our hearts. I ask you to leave as soon as you can
receive this; how every day she has lived in the last two weeks seems like a
recent miracle, performed for some as-yet-unknown purpose.
She then tells me
that she ordered a horse for John Taylor [John Taylor and his brother David
(see Diary, iii. 24-5n]) were in the service of the Earl of Huntingdon. He went
with Wesley to Birstall, and was with him at Newcastle-upon-Tyne and at
Epworth, where he stayed in the cemetery, and gave notice when the people had
left the service: 'Mr. Wesley, not being permitted to preach in church, intends
to preach here at six o'clock.'] Come with me.
It seems that I
should go, and that without delay. I think of going early in the morning to
Bexley, and correcting Mr. Piers's sermon, [The elaborate care they used in
reviewing such deliverances may be seen in the Diary notes in the Journal, ii.
387-8.] and of leaving for Donnington on Wednesday. If you write as soon as you
receive this, your letter will be there as soon as I am; and I'll go to
Lincolnshire for a week, or I'll go straight to Bristol, as you like. May all
the brothers pray for me. Goodbye! [3]
His spirit was in
flight for all eternity
To your brother
Charles
LONDON, Saturday,
July 31, 1742.
My heart has not, and
I am absolutely sure [God does not condemn me for any lack of duty to her] in
any way, except only [that I did not rebuke her as clearly and fully as I
ought]. Absurdum, iniquum, injustum, supra
omnem modum mihi videtur, quod quis isto modo me lacessat. ['Absurd, unjust,
unjust beyond all measure, it seems to me, that someone would attack me in this
way.']
Now, I would like you
to let me know at once whom I shall take to the house, to keep the bills, etc.
&c. &c., in T. Meyrick's room, and what [woman as a maid or a lady in
Betty Brown's place]. I await your answer.
I'm going to take the
books to Evesham, [He was in Evesham on August 17th. The books were probably
Charles Wesley's Hymns and Sacred Poems, published that year.] if I don't send
it before. The day I shall shortly depart (if I have life and health) is Monday
fortnight, and on Thursday, a fortnight, I hope to be in Bristol.
I will write to Lady
Huntingdon [He was at this time on very intimate terms with Lady Huntingdon,
and visited her frequently at Donnington Park (Life and Times, i. 58). Her
recent journey north had been suggested by a letter from her. See letter of
July 12, 1743.] News of my mother's death tonight. She will be buried tomorrow
night. Goodbye. [4]
And it's almost
fashionable to speak well of us
I became more and
more honored every day; The rich and great met in our house, so that often the
room did not receive them. Iniquity has for now shut his mouth; And it's almost
fashionable to speak well of us
To your brother
Charles
LEEDS, April 23,
1745.
DEAR BROTHER,
[Charles Wesley was in London from April 9 to June 17.]--It was time for me to
give them the land at Newcastle [See previous letter.] and fly for my life. I
became more and more honored every day; The rich and great met in our house, so
that often the room did not receive them. Iniquity has for now shut his mouth;
And it's almost fashionable to speak well of us. Apparently, if I had stayed
another month, the mayor and the councilors would also be with us.
On Easter Monday, we
met at half past four o'clock; and the room was filled from one side to the
other with people tall and humble, rich and poor, simple and fine. At the age
of nine, I preached to an almost as large congregation in Chesterle-Street. All
were quiet and motionless; for the hand of our Lord was in the midst of them.
About six o'clock I preached at Northallerton in the house: but it should have
been (afterwards I found out) at the Cross; for the people that exist are (most
of them) a noble people, and they receive the word with all readiness of mind.
A gentleman from Osmotherley [Mr. Adams. See Diary, iii. 169; W.H.S. vii.
28-31.] (east of Northallerton) saying that he wished I could have gone and
preached there, took his word for it, set out at once, and about ten o'clock in
the evening preached at Osmotherley, in a large chapel which, some years ago,
belonged to a convent of Franciscan friars. I found that I was at the centre of
all the Papists in the North of England. Commessatorem haud satis commodum!
['Adelphi of Terence, v. ii. 8: 'An unfit companion of blessing.'] This was
also God's work.
The classes call me
away. I need (for several reasons) to see London before Bristol. One of them
is: I will go from Bristol to Cornwall; so if I come to Bristol now, I shall
not be in London in these three months. What
I propose, therefore, is to go from Birmingham, through Oxford (as I wrote
before), straight to London. [He arrived in London on May 11.] Can you let me
know where you're going to find me. Everyone here greets you very much. If you
could come here soon (think about it), Leeds would compete with Newcastle. I
wish I could. Oh, let's watch! Goodbye. [5]
I leaned into this scheme for many years
I have leaned into this scheme for many years; but
lately I have doubted this more and more: (1) because all the texts which I
used to think supported, I now believe prove more or less either absolute
disapproval and election, or neither.
ATHXONE. August 8, 1752.
DEAR BROTHER,
-- I am almost surprised that I have not heard a word from
you since the trial at Gloucester. Either Mr. I'Anson or someone else should
have written it up to the next post. Do they all forget me as soon as we have
the sea between us
Some of our preachers here have stated peremptorily that you are not as
strict as I am; that you do not practice, enforce or approve of the Band Rules.
I suppose they refer to those who condemn unnecessary self-indulgence, and
recommend the means of grace, especially fasting, which is almost forgotten
throughout this nation. I think it would be helpful if you wrote it down
without delay and explained yourself broadly.
They also openly stated that you agree with Mr. Whitefield, mentioning
at least Perseverance, if not Predestination as well. Isn't it very convenient
for you to write explicitly and firmly about this topic as well?
Perhaps the occasion of this last statement was that both you and I
often conceded an absolute and unconditional election of a few, together with a
conditional election of all men. I have leaned into this scheme for many years;
but lately I have doubted this more and more: (1) because all the texts which I
used to think supported, I now believe prove more or less either absolute
reprobation and election, or neither; (2) because I consider this opinion to
serve all the evil purposes of absolute predestination, particularly that of
supposing infallible perseverance. Talk to anyone who has it, and you'll find
it.
Next Friday and Saturday we have our little Conference in Limerick.
I hope my sister feels in good hands, and
that you can trust Him with her and all things. [Charles Wesley's first son,
named John after his brother, was born on August 21 and died of smallpox on
January 7, 1754.] We unite in love. [6]
It's
much easier for me to hope than to despair
To your brother Charles
LONDON, October 20, 1753.
DEAR BROTHER, -- I firmly believed that this young woman
would die in peace; although I didn't anticipate it would be anytime soon. We
have had several examples of music heard before or in the death of those who
die in the Lord. May we conceive that this is literally the music of the
angels. Can it be heard by ears of flesh and blood? [See next letter.]
It was not possible for me to send the work of Jane Bates
[Mrs. Bate (or Bates), by Wakefield. See Diary, iii. 112, 221-4 (his letter to
Wesley); and the Diary of C. Wesley, i. 351, for his conversation with her
husband.] letter before my return to London. I sent it last week to Ted
Perronet. But whether he is now on earth or in paradise, I do not know.
[Perronet soon recovered and outlived Wesley. Briggs married his sister
Elizabeth in 1749. See Diary viii. 52; and next letter.] It was believed that
he was dying a few days ago at Epworth, and rejoicing vehemently in God.
William Briggs set out for Epworth last night to see him, dead or alive.
It's much easier for me to hope than to despair of anyone
or anything. I never despaired of John Hutchinson. For with God no word is
impossible. And if he testifies to a full and deep sense of his long revolt
against God, I hope he lives or dies happily. But let me hear the details of
your Diaries, and perhaps I have a stronger hope.
I came back from Bedford [Bedford badly needed a visit.
The Moravians caused trouble, and 'the little Society narrowly escaped.' See
the Diary, iv. 84-7.] Last night. I don't know if it was your will or not (I
don't think so), but I'm sure it was God's will that you call there. As you
judge whether something is God's will or not, I hope not by internal
impressions. Let's walk with caution. I have a lot of constitutional
enthusiasm, and you have a lot more
I have no more or less faith in human testimony now than
I had ten or fifteen years ago. I might suspect that every man who talks to me
is a bumbler or a liar, but I won't suspect it. I don't dare until I have
proof.
I give you a dilemma. Stand on one side or the other.
Either he acts in a way that is really connected with me, or he never pretends.
Before that, deny this and openly state that you do and will not do it.
By acting in connection with me, I mean consult with me
once or twice a year about the places where you are going to give birth. Listen
to my advice before you settle, take it or not.
At the moment you are so far from it that I don't even
know when and where you intend to go; So far you are far from following any
advice from me — no, even asking for it. And yet I can say without vanity that
I am a better judge of this question than Lady Huntingdon, Sally, [Charles
wrote to his wife in the autumn of 1753: 'The more hard work in the vineyard,
the more time I have sex with you.' See Charles Wesley, of Telford, pp. 195-6.]
Jones [John Jones. See letter of April 16, 1748.], or any other—no, than his
own heart, that is, will.
I wish you all peace, zeal and love. [7]
When traveling, which of us draws up his plan
according to reason?
You say, 'That is not God's will that His
providence makes impracticable. But His providence made my going to Bedford
impracticable.' Taste the smallest and I'll be satisfied.
When traveling, which of us draws up his plan
according to reason?
To your brother Charles
LONDON, October 31, 1753.
DEAR BROTHER, -- My fever stopped after twelve hours.
After a second crisis of about fourteen hours, I began to take the peel and am
now regaining my strength.
I cannot understand that such music has any analogy to
the inner voice of God. I consider that it differs from this toto genus and
that it is more the effect of an angel affecting the auditory nerves, just as
an apparition affects the optic nerve or the retina. [See previous letter.]
Ted Perronet is now completely recovered. I received a
letter from him a day or two ago.
You say, 'That is not God's will that His providence
makes impracticable. But His providence made my going to Bedford
impracticable.' Taste the smallest and I'll be satisfied.
When traveling, which of us draws up his plan according
to reason? Either you act (quite unlike me) by the impressions you consider
divine, or (what is worse) pro ratione voluntas.
[The following four paragraphs are omitted from the
letter as printed in Wesley's Works.] 'I won't believe evil until I'm forced.'
These are very good words.
'I wonder you should want him.' What I have wished for in
these ten years is that you really act in connection, or that you never say
that you do. Either stop professing or start performing.
As I can say, 'I do not know your intentions, when you
told me that you intended to spend the winter in Bristol,' I answer, (1) I
heard of your intention of being in Bristol before I had even heard of you. (2)
Have you consulted me about this? Was my approval ever questioned on the
subject or any of the other of the itinerant preachers or stewards? (3) You had
consulted me previously (which you did not) on this point, but one swallow does
not make a summer.
O brother, no longer pretend for that which you are not.
You will not act in conjunction with me. Not since I married only (to put that
is only a finesse), but for ten years, past and more, you have acted towards me
no more than Mr. Whitefield did. I wish you would start doing this now; or
don't talk anymore as if you did.
My love to my sister. Goodbye.
You told W. Briggs 'that you never refused to go anywhere
because my wife was there.' I'm happy about that. If so, I hope we can spend
time together.
Why do you omit to give the sacrament in Kingswood? What
is reading prayers in Bristol compared to this? I'm sure that when you made
this vehement change, you never consulted me.
My love to my sister. Goodbye! [8]
Save Ireland
Go to Ireland if you think so, and save
Ireland. Wherever I have been in England, the Societies are much more firmly
and rationally connected with the Church than they have ever been before. I'm
not afraid of that. I only fear that the preachers or the people will leave not
the Church, but the love of God and holiness inward or outward.
To your brother Charles
LONDON, June 28, 1755.
DEAR BROTHER, -- Leave G. Stonehouse [On May 28, Charles
Wesley wrote to his wife of 'George Stonehouse's other accommodations' in
London and informs him of the route for the journey towards Bristol. He hopes
to 'rest my beast' in Dornford, where Stonehouse lived. See Charles Wesley, ii.
of Jackson. 80-1, 87.] Write and welcome. When we are together, I trust that we
can read safely.
I have often wished that our preachers would bury a
corpse in Wapping. I intend to give an exhortation, which ends with a prayer. I
don't know if this is a violation of the priestly office.
None of our Societies has received James Wheatley yet. I
don't think any will want to. Still, we can give a warning wherever we write.
T. Walsh [See Tyerman's Wesley, ii. 200; and letter of June 20.] (I'll state it
on the roof) gave me a~ the satisfaction I desire, and everything that an
honest man could give. I love, admire, and honor him, and wish we had six
sermons throughout England on his spirit.
But enough of that. We will no longer draw the saw, but
use all our talents to promote the mind that was in Christ. 'Not yet' is out of
the question. We don't have a preacher who has proposed, desired, or planned
(to my knowledge) to separate from the Church 'in any way.' Their principles
(in the single point of ordination) I do not approve. But I pray for more and
more of their spirit (in general) and their practice.
I talked to Mr. Graves, [Charles Caspar Graves, one of
Charles Wesley's clerical friends, whom he describes in 1739 as 'fully awake.'
See Diary, iii. 40-2; C. Wesley's Journal, i. 160, 422.] and will do it again.
Directing myself can make me sway; although I haven't yet. 'When the preachers
in Ireland are established, shall you not disown them?' I reply, 'When.'
I thought you had said that my sister expected to sleep
later in May; Now it's the end of June. [Martha Maria, their second daughter,
was born on June 23, but lived only one month and two days.] If you can make it
to Cornwall at the end of July, it's early enough. I would like you to see each
of the societies in the country; and why not New Kingswood too, goodbye.
[Note at the end: 'Robert Windsor. Given to Chas. He left
for Norwich on Monday.'] [9]
A way to understand each other clearly
Some thoughts occurred to me this morning, which I
think it is useful to let go of, but because it can be a means of understanding
each other clearly, of agreeing as much as possible, and then letting the whole
world know about it
To your brother Charles
[September, 1762.]
Some thoughts occurred to me this morning, which I think it is useful to
let go of, but because it can be a means of understanding each other clearly,
of agreeing as much as possible, and then letting the whole world know about
it.
I was thinking of Christian perfection, in relation to the thing, the
mode, and the time.
1. By perfection I mean the humble, gentle, and patient love of God and
man which governs all tempers, words, and actions, the whole heart, and all
life.
I do not include the possibility of falling from it, neither in part nor
in total. That is why I portray several expressions in our hymns that partly
express, partly imply, such an impossibility. And I do not defend the term
'sinless', although I do not oppose it. Do we agree or disagree here? If we
differ, in what
2. As to the way, I believe that this perfection is always attained in
the soul by faith, by a simple act of faith; consequently, in an instant. But I
believe that a gradual work both before and after that moment. We agree or
disagree here
3. As for the moment, I believe that this instant is usually the instant
of death, the moment before the soul leaves the body. But I believe it could be
ten, twenty, or forty years before death. We agree or disagree here
I believe that it is usually many years after justification, but that it
can be within five or five months later. I don't know of any conclusive
argument to the contrary. You do
If it is for many years after justification, I would be happy to know
how many. Pretium quotus arrogat annus [Epistles of Horace, II. i. 35: How many
years shall claim the prize'] And how many days, months, or even years can you
allow to be between perfection and death? How far from justification must it
be, and how near to death
If it is possible, may you and I come to a good understanding, both for our own sake and for the sake of the people.
I
answered the Bishop and received counsel on my answer. If the devil owes him
shame, he will answer. He is a sensible man; But I really think he doesn't
understand Greek
To his brother Charles LONDON, December 11, 1762.
DEAR BROTHER,-- For eighteen or twenty days I heard with both ears, but
I seldom opened my mouth. I think I now understand the case at least as well as
anyone in England.
The sum is this: (1) The meeting at Beech Lane, [The meeting was
apparently at Joseph Guilford's house (see Diary, v. 7). When visiting the
classes in November, Wesley noticed that 'some were vehement in favor, others
against, the prayer meetings that were taking place in various parts of the
city. I spoke little, afraid of taking any step that I might afterwards
regret" (ibid., iv. 538). Thomas Maxfield was causing a lot of trouble.]
Before I came to the city, it was like a bear garden; full of noise, fights,
swearing, swearing, blasphemies and confusion. Those who prayed were partly the
occasion of it, by their horrible cries and enthusiastic and unscriptural
expressions. (3) Determined to 'fix them or finish them off,' I moved the
meeting to the Foundation. (4) Immediately the noise, quarrels, swearing,
swearing, blasphemies, and confusion ceased. (5) There was less and less
shouting and less enthusiastic, unscriptural language. (6) In examining the
Society, I found about eighty persons who were convinced of sin, and nearly
eighty who were justified in these meetings. So, overall, they caused some
heartache and very well. I trust that they will do more good now, and will do
no harm. Seven people had left the Company for this reason; But four of them
have already returned.
I bought the land before the Kingswood School of Margaret Ward and paid
for it with my own money. [This land was divided into pastures and gardens, in
which the boys worked. See Kingswood School, p. 19.] Certainly, therefore, I
have the right to use it as I wish. What any reasonable man can say to the
contrary
I answered the Bishop and received counsel on my answer. If the devil
owes him shame, he will answer. He is a sensible man; But I really think he
doesn't understand Greek! [See letter heading on p. 338.]
I would be happy to see Mr. Nitchman. [David Nitschmann, who had sailed
with the Wesleys to Georgia as bishop responsible for Moravian emigrants. See
Diary, i.111, ii.37.] What is beyond loving the faith! We unite in love with
Sally and you. Goodbye! [10]
Satisfied with John Jones' learning
I am satisfied with the learning of John Jones (for
there is no cause for debate between us) and with the judgment of John
Matthews, Charles Perronet, and James Morgan. Still, it is certain that his
admirers will still find him irresponsible
To his brother Charles LONDON, December 23, 1762.
DEAR BROTHER,-- But how to get to the discourse of the miners is the
question; for there are a hundred miles between us; for this is too critical a
time for me to be outside of London.
I believe that several in London imagined themselves saved from sin 'by
the word of others'; and this is easily known. Because this work is not
sustainable. These imaginings soon disappear. Some of these and two or three
others are still wild. But I think Mrs. Garbrand [To Mrs. Garbrand (whose name
is in shorthand), see the title of the letter of September 29, 1764 to Ann
Foard.] surpasses them all. But the question does not end here. I could play
around with all of this if I could, but put Thomas Maxfield in his place. He is
mali caput et fons ['The head and source of evil.']; so inimitably mistaken and
utterly unconvincing! And yet (which is extremely strange) God continues to
bless their labors.
My affection for Sally! Goodbye! Soon I will test your patience with a
long letter.
Edited by Jerry James (Pastor) and converted to HTML by Steven F.
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for profit of this text is permitted without the express written consent of the
Wesley Center for Applied Theology at Northwest Nazarene College, Nampa, Idaho
83686, USA. Contact your webmaster for permission. [11]
I am not entirely satisfied with
your preaching
I have no objection to Mr. Trail's preaching
in the Hall of the Weavers; but I am not entirely satisfied with your preaching
To your brother Charles
LONDON, January 11, 1765.
DEAR BROTHER,-- I believe Thomas Goodwin wrote this book.
Hasten the Extract of John Goodwin's Treatise on Justification, which William
Pine, of Bristol, was printing. See letter of December 31, 1764.] and give Pine
the Foreword.
Mr. Tooth [Samuel Tooth. See Stevenson's City Road
Chapel, p. 476; and letter of September 27, 1778 to him.] it is not yet a
Calvinist, nor is Mr. Downing or half of it. I have a letter from him today and
I hope to be with him in Ovington tomorrow.
On Monday morning, I wanted the preachers and stewards to
meet me. Afterwards, he was questioned,--
1. Can James Thwayte, B. Russen, Rd. Perry, James Satles,
John Oliver, and T. Bryant, [Oliver was posted to Lancashire at the next
Conference. For Bryant's ordination, see letters of July 5 and December 15,
1764.] who have purchased an ordination in an unknown language, are to be
received by us as clerics nº
2. We can receive them more as preachers
3. We may receive them as members of our Society No. And
I have ordered this to be announced immediately to each of them. Goodbye.
To the Rev. Mr. C. Wesley, in Bristol. [12]
Look out for our little ones in
Kingswood whenever you can
Look out for our little ones in Kingswood
whenever you can. A word from you will be a relief to them. Oh, how many
talents are entrusted to us!
To your brother Charles
LONDON, January 15, 1768.
DEAR BROTHER,-- Six or seven hundred pounds are brought
to a Conference, of which five hundred at least pay dues. Then extraordinary demands
are met. How much is still left for the law I am now nearly three hundred
pounds out of my pocket, which I borrowed to pay Mr. Perdo. When I receive more
from Newcastle, [See previous letter.] I will send her to Bristol; Probably
very soon.
It is highly likely that one of the three will stand
before the Lord. But as far as I could learn, something like this had barely
happened in these thousand years before, as a son, father, grandfather, atavus,
tritavu, preaching the gospel, no, and the true gospel, online. You know, Mr.
White, who was president of the Assembly of the Divines, was my grandmother's
father.
Look out for our little ones in Kingswood whenever you
can. A word from you will be a relief to them. Oh, how many talents are
entrusted to us!
'But what account can your bad steward make?' In fact, we
need to strengthen our heads and run faster through the little remaining of our
race. 'One thing!' Let's take care of one thing only; and nothing great or
small except how he ministers it!
Peace be with you and yours! Goodbye. [13]
Will you stand side by side?
I am at my limit in regard to two things—the
Church and Christian Perfection. Unless you and I stay in the gap with a lot of
will, the Methodists will abandon both. Talking is no use. We must act, or we
will be taken away. Will you stand side by side?
To your brother Charles
EDINBURGH, May 14, 1768.
DEAR BROTHER,-- It's good that Sally R is at peace. I was
long ago convinced that if she continued to stop him, God, in mercy on both of them,
would take her out of here.
I'm glad Mr. Fletcher was with you. But if the tutor
fails, what will become of our school in Trevecca. Have you ever seen anything
stranger than their institution plan? Pray who wrote it, man or woman I am
afraid that the visitor will also fail. [Fletcher was the visitor.]
The archers here severely wounded Lord Buchan. [The Earl
of Buchan died December 1, 1767, and his son succeeded him at the age of
twenty-four.] But if Isaac stays with you in London, what do the Bristol
Butlers have to do with him? They can then easily find their equal; For in
relation to them he is equal to—nothing.
I am at my limit in regard to two things—the Church and
Christian Perfection. Unless you and I stay in the gap with a lot of will, the
Methodists will abandon both. Talking is no use. We must act, or we will be
taken away. Will you stand side by side? If so, think deeply about it and tell
me what can be done. Age, come this! intendas tuos nerves. ['Come, be a man!
Stretch your nerves.' The last three words are from Terence's Eunuch II. iii.
19.] Peace be with you and yours! Goodbye. [14]
He will go where they know his worth
I will not throw T. Rankin away for the people of London. He will go
where they know his worth.
To your
brother Charles
KINGSWOOD,
August 3, 1771.
DEAR
BROTHER,-- I will not throw T. Rankin away for the people of London. He will go
where they know his worth. [Rankin was in London; now he went to Cornwall
West.]
We can't
release what we never put in. I don't use the word merit. [See section 6 in the
July 10 letter.] I never did that. I never fought, nor do I fight now, for the
use of it. But I ask you or anyone else a simple question; and don't shout
'Murder', but give me an answer: What is the difference between deserve and
'deserve' or between 'deserve' and meritum, I still can't say. You can... Can
Mr. Shirley or any living man ask this question, I do not appeal against her. I
have nothing to do with it. I have declared a thousand times that there is no
goodness in a man until he is justified; no merit before or after: that is, to
accept the word in its proper sense; for, in a broad sense, meritorious means
nothing more than rewarding.
As for the
Reprobation, seeing that they drew the sword, I throw away the scabbard. I'll
send you a ster. May fifteen hundred of them be printed as soon as you want. [A
Defense of the Minutes of the Conference (1770) relating to Calvinism. See
Green's Bibliography, no. 273; and letters of July 10 and 20. ]
Nothing was
spent from the Annual Subscription without being immediately recorded by the
secretary. I have not yet taken a shilling out of that fund. What you advise
about our behavior toward opposers agrees exactly with my feelings.
I found out
that my wife is still on the high ropes. I'm full of business, as you can
imagine. So, goodbye! [15]
Preachers and Christian Perfection
I think almost all of our preachers in all
circuits did it with Christian perfection. They say they believe it; but they
never preach it, or not once every quarter. What should be done? Let's let it
go or make a point of it
To your brother Charles
CONGLETON, March 25, 1772.
DEAR BROTHER,--Giles Ball (as Oliver [Oliver Cromwell]
said on his deathbed: 'I am safe, for I know I have been in grace.' See
Morley's Cromwell, p. 486.] said) was once a good man! I hope we don't have
more of that type. There is still a famous one in Bristol. Now I understand why
he couldn't join us. Poor Mr. B--.! [See letter of April 26.] I used to imagine
better things from him.
I think almost all of our preachers in all circuits did
it with Christian perfection. They say they believe it; but they never preach
it, or not once every quarter. What should be done? Let's let it go or make a
point of it
Ah, what a thing it is to have curam animarum! ['The care
of souls.'] You and I are called to this; to save souls from death, to care for
them as those who must be accountable! If our office meant no more than
preaching a few times a week, I could play with it; You can be too. But how
small is the part of our duty (yours and mine) too! God says to you and to me:
'Do everything you can, whether more or less, to save the souls for whom my Son
died.' May this voice continue to ring in our ears; Then we will give up our
account with joy. Eia, age; Rumpe Moras! [See letter of February 28, 1766 to
him.] I am ashamed of my indolence and inactivity. May the good Lord help us
both! Goodbye! 'Errwsqe. ['Goodbye.'] [16]
Let me be again an Oxford Methodist
To your brother Charles
SHOREHAM, December 15, 1772.
DEAR BROTHER,--I have scarcely had a day in London, except Sundays and
visiting hours. Dr. Ford never came close to me, nor very close to Billy Ley.
Fear evadir, erupit [In Cicero's Catilinam, ii. II: 'He disappeared, he
escaped' (Cicero on Catiline)]. I wrote to Mr. Fletcher today. When Mr. Hill is
going to fall on me next, Mr. Fletcher will have a little time to breathe, and
probably a little longer while Mr. Hill digests my answer; for whom I think
together we will find work for some time.
Now, you are not going to stand shoulder to shoulder, or you can say
something about the Church; But two are better than m. If we live till August,
stay by my side, and we will close the matter [See letter of May 30, 1773].
I believe we can count on Captain [Webb. See letter from November.] over
America. He has stayed long enough with you: send him to us.
I often shout, Vitae me redde priori! [Epistles of Horace, I. vii. 95:
'Give me back my former life.'] Let me be an Oxford Methodist again! I am often
in doubt whether it would not be better for me to take up all my Oxford rules,
great and small. So, I walked closely with God and redeemed time. But what have
I been doing these thirty years
My love to all. Goodbye! [17]
I don't think I've ever really met another man like
that
To tell my naked thoughts (which I don't tell
everyone), I talked to Ralph Mather over and over again. I don't think I've
really ever met another man like that. Having much to think (though he is not
infallible, nor of an unusual natural understanding) he is now as deep in grace
as G. Lopez was.
To your brother Charles
LONDON, January 13, 1774.
DEAR BROTHER,-- Probably, if I live another year, I may need Mr. Wathen
again; But, so far, it is not easy to determine. However, I am currently
perfectly fine.
Your advice towards Mr. D[avis] is good. He's very quiet, but not very
helpful
To tell my naked thoughts (which I don't tell everyone), I talked to
Ralph Mather over and over again. I don't think I've really ever met another
man like that. Having much to think (though he is not infallible, nor of an
unusual natural understanding) he is now as deep in grace as G. Lopez was.
I mean, Dr. Boyce. I'm glad Charles is home. [But the question is why
you shouldn't have it in your time. You're a man!]
There is no truth in this. A mere Georgian story.
I think God raised T. Olivers from the dust in poor Walter Sellon's
room. The conclusion of his book is noble: true and strong oratory.
Goldsmith's History and Hooke's are by far the best. I think I'll
improve them. My vision in writing history (as well as writing philosophy) is
to bring God into it. When I talk to Ralph Mather, I'm surprised and almost
discouraged. What I've been doing for seventy years!
Peace be with you and yours! Goodbye.
To the Rev. Mr. C. Wesley, in Bristol. [18]
Duty is all I consider
Duty is all I consider. Problems and failures I do not value. And I am
not at all sure that I can, with good conscience, discard what I think God's
providence has placed in my hands
To your brother Charles
WHITEHAVEN, May 6, 1774.
DEAR BROTHER,--With or without Mr. Southcote, he does not need to
publish nonsense, which he has already done in a hundred places.
I will not give anything or spend any of it—not a shilling; and what is
paid can only be refunded. Nothing is diverted by this means from any reason.
You told me that Mr. D[avies] accepted your mare. But there are
certainly more mares in the kingdom!
I never said a word about 'publishing after my death'. I have judged it
my duty to publish it now; and I struggle as much to believe in one way as any
man has to believe in another. I was happy with the opportunity to declare
myself in my head. I ask Hugh Bold to let me think as well as he does, and to
believe that my judgment will go as far as his. I have no doubt about the
content of both Glanvill's and Cotton Mather's narratives. So, at this point,
you who have a different mentality, bear with me.
Veniam petimusque damusque vicissim. Remember, I am, after full
consideration and seventy years of experience, as obstinate in my opinion as
you are in yours. Don't you think the confusions at my dad's house were a Cock
Lane story? Peace be with you and yours! [19]
The ones that neither you nor I can remedy
We love everyone and pray for everyone with a sincere and impartial
love. There may be flaws on both sides; but those which neither you nor I can
remedy: therefore let us and all our children be given up to prayer, and so
stand still and see the salvation of God.
[Charles Wesley also wrote to Rankin.]
March 1, 1775.
MY DEAR BROTHER,-- To save expense, I have delayed replying to your
letter; but I always keep you in my heart, and I rejoice when the Lord blesses
you successfully. He bestows grace, more grace, on the humble; therefore,
wrestle with Him out of deep humility.
As for public affairs, I
want you to think the same way I do. I am not on either side, and yet on both;
on the New England and Old side. Private Christians are dismissed, exempt,
privileged, so as not to participate in civil strife. We love everyone and pray
for everyone with a sincere and impartial love. There may be flaws on both
sides; but those which neither you nor I can remedy: therefore let us and all
our children be given up to prayer, and so stand still and see the salvation of
God. My compliments to Captain Webb when you see him, and to Mr. Bowden, to
whom I owe letters and much love.[20]
But I easily predicted that there would be
objections to the large amount of salary
I have received no letter from any of our preachers
to prevent Mr. Davis from coming to our aid. But I easily predicted that there
would be objections to the large amount of the salary. If some of our brothers
and sisters would like to help here, it will be very easy
To your brother Charles
LONDONDERRY, May 30, 1773.
DEAR BROTHER,--I have received no letter from any of our preachers to
prevent Mr. Davis from coming to our aid [See letter of July 10, 1772 to your
brother]. But I easily predicted that there would be objections to the large
amount of the salary. If some of our brothers would like to help here, it will
be very easy. I truly believe that his heart is with us and that God will make
him useful to the people. It has been given to us, and we should strive to be
as useful as possible to it.
No, but you intended again and again to stand by me in this and that
Conference, and then left me alone [Charles Wesley was withdrawn from the work
of Methodism, to his own loss and that of his brother. See letter of December
15, 1772]. It is certain that we can both turn the tide. Only I can contain it.
I have been in two groups since I arrived in Ireland, one in the South
and one in the North. The Protestant crowd was by far the worst. But I am still
in full condition [For the riot at Waterford on April 25, and the most serious
at Enniskillen on May 24-5, see Journal, v. 503-4, 507-9]. Durn vivimus vivamus
['As long as we live, let us live']. Peace be with you and yours. Goodbye. [21]
He returned to the group and was a regular
assistant
In 1766 Charles Wesley persuaded Hammond, 'a poor
wandering sheep who ran well for years, but forsook us after her marriage, and
Christ too', to go to Spitalfields Chapel after twelve years of interruption.
He returned to the group and was a regular assistant.
To your brother Charles
DEPTFORD, February 22, 1774.
DEAR BROTHER,-- I saw Mr. Leddiard [One of Charles Wesley's friends in
Bristol, apparently visiting London. See his Diary, ii. 270, 275, 279]. Speak a
few words in the congregation, and the remaining tracts will be sold in fifteen
minutes [Wesley published his Thoughts on Slavery in 1774. See Green's
Bibliography, no. 298].
Surely you should reprint the testimonials; Omitting only the names of
both the captains and the ships.
Keep reading. The more you read in Thomas [A Scourge to Calumny, by
Thomas Olivers. See the letter of January 13] what you will like best. I had
never seen it until it was printed.
Miss March [See letters of 4 March 1760 and 17 June 1774 to her] is
likely to recover; She goes out every day. Mrs. G--- is not united with the
Germans. I believe that Miss Helena S. B---- is. Miss ---- is in town.
We unite in love for you and yours. [22]
Preach as much as you can and no more than you can
Preach as much as you can and no more than you can. You'll never get
much stronger until you add air change to the exercise, riding two or three
hundred miles at point-blank range
To your brother Charles
LONDONDERRY, June 2, 1775.
DEAR BROTHER,-- I thought it strange that poor S.F. should leave me nine
hundred pounds in debt. But it is still stranger that John Atlay should have
paid one thousand six hundred out of nine, and that I should be one hundred and
sixty pounds in debt, in spite of it!
Mr. Wathen's method of radical healing will hardly try. I'm very easy,
and that's enough.
I am convinced that Billy Baynes' eye is single; therefore, it will come
in handy. Our other friend should know what he was thinking. We only parted for
four pounds a year.
I am extremely glad that T. Rankin does not print until his papers have
passed our correction. I was afraid that he hadn't been so patient. Exactly
what I thought in the beginning, I still think about American affairs. If a
blow is struck, I give America as lost, and perhaps England as well. Our part
is to continue instantly in prayer.
Sammy will not only get better, but very well if you don't kill him
gently.
Did my friend pick up a house in Bristol? Is Noah with her? What are
they doing? Mr. Madan behaved well. Res ipsa reduxit in gratiam.
Preach as much as you can and no more than you can. You'll never get
much stronger until you add air change to the exercise, riding two or three
hundred miles at point-blank range. Now you have an opportunity. Meet me in
Leeds with the honest John Murlin. When you're tired, you can switch places
with him. You would come back a robust and healthy man.
I plan to write to Mr. Fletcher soon. I don't remember that he touched
the cornerstone of their hypothesis—'the covenant of redemption.' One would not
want to be easy without him. Only here must we stop reasoning or become
Calvinists. That is the strength of their cause.
Peace be with you and yours! Goodbye! [23]
I left the Orphans' House alone
As things stand now, I left the Orphans' House alone, so that the
medicine would not be worse than the disease. I also have a good letter from T.
Rankin. He and all our brothers expect suffering. So far, they have behaved
extremely well.
To your brother Charles
LEEDS, August 4, 1775.
DEAR BROTHER,-- The (blessed) Conference concluded this morning, and I
am as strong as I was when it began. I don't advise you to accept the
invitation: I read a letter today that I didn't like.
No, Mr. Saunderson is 'settled in Bristol' — that is, as a local
preacher.
Such a Speech to the Americans would be very appropriate. You've heard
something about Africans.
I hope to be in London on Tuesday evening and on Thursday of the
following week in Brecon.
As things stand now, I left the Orphans' House alone, so that the
medicine would not be worse than the disease. I also have a good letter from T.
Rankin. He and all our brothers expect suffering. So far, they have behaved
extremely well. I need to write by mail to Sister Castleman and my other
friends in Bristol. Peace be with you and yours! Goodbye! [24]
Except speaking ill of the other
I would do anything to please those on each side except speak ill of the
other
To your brother Charles
LONDON, August 10, 1775.
DEAR BROTHER,-- I would do everything to please those on each side,
except speak ill of the other.
I sent your request to Sam. Heaton.
I believe it will be best to accept Mr. Castleman's invitation in
Bristol and go straight to his house. I return through Cardiff; If you can get
there, I could take you home. It is not safe to live or die without love.
Peace be with you all! Goodbye.
I would like Sammy Lewis to meet me on the 28th at the Old Passage. [25]
They just follow their leaders and do what they are told
Yet it is
certain that the greater part of the people, both in England and in America,
have no intention of doing harm; They just follow their leaders and do what
they are told without knowing why or why
To your brother Charles
RAMSBURY PARK, October 17, 1775.
DEAR BROTHER,-- It takes time to put people in their place; but we
should despair of nothing. I threw my bread on the waters, and I should have
been content even if there were no fruit present. A few hours this morning I
dedicate to 'Americanus'. What is material, I will endeavor to answer. It is
well if I can give as good an account of everything else as of my change of
judgment.
I now see a danger of a new kind—the danger of losing my love for
Americans: I mean for their wretched leaders; for the poor sheep are 'more sins
than sins', especially since the incredible information I received from James
Ireland. Yet it is certain that the greater part of the people, both in England
and in America, have no intention of doing harm; They just follow their leaders
and do what they are told without knowing why or why.
On Friday, I hope to be in London and talk to the committee about
building a new Foundation. This is a lovely place and a lovely family. It's a
shame, but you could call here. It is four miles from Marlborough, and only one
mile north of the London road. Peace be with you and yours! Goodbye! [26]
They should tell him that he has completely lost
himself
What a pity! Some of our friends in Bristol should
tell him that he was completely lost; that he has forgotten all decency and
good manners, and writes like an arrogant and conceited young man. I think a
sensible man who could control his temper would put him a little embarrassed
To your brother Carlos
NEWBURY, October 19, 1775.
DEAR BROTHER,-- Last night I received a curious anecdote from Mr.
Merchant, the independent minister here. He said to me, 'Mr. Evans, of Bristol
(the elder), informed me that he dined with you (J. W.) at a merchant's house
in Bristol; that he asked how you were affected on reading the reply to your
late treatise: and you answered, Not at all; for you have never read it, and
never would: to which he replied, 'That was not fair.'
Where is the error? The reply to my belated treatise is dated October 2.
But I left Bristol on October 1. Consequently, such a conversation could not
exist. I think I've already grabbed the thread and I can undo everything. Last
year a gentleman whom I did not know (who I suppose to be Mr. Evans) dined with
me at Mr. Wraxall's; and probably he could speak to me (though I do not
remember) of some treatise which I had published at the time. If so, there is
only a harmless mistake by Mr. Merchant, who misunderstood what Mr. Evans said.
But that makes it even more likely that your son will be the author of
the letter to me. What a pity! Some of our friends in Bristol should tell him
that he was completely lost; that he has forgotten all decency and good
manners, and writes like an arrogant and conceited young man. I think a
sensible man who could control his temper would put him a little to shame.
Goodbye! [27]
We can agree to disagree
No man is a good judge in his own cause. I believe
I am reasonably impartial; but you are not (at least, you have not been for
some time) in relation to King Charles I. Come see what I say. If the worst
happens, we can agree to disagree
To your brother Charles
LONDON, November 3, 1775.
DEAR BROTHER,-- The Proposals and the Preface will be sent on Monday. In
the Preface to the new edition of the Discourse (which I shall send together
with the Proposals) there is, I believe, a sufficient reply to Mr. Evan's
letter. But Mr. Raikes is right: if he has no name, he has no title for any
answer.
History has spent some time in the press. The first volume is almost
printed. The paper is good; As well as the type; And, what is stranger, so is
the execution. Goodbye to your first letter.
Still, I don't know who you mean by Dr. Smyth; unless it is the young
clergyman in Ireland, who is a poet, but not of the first magnitude.
'Why weren't they taxed for one hundred and fifty years?' How shockingly
ignorant of the law are our lawyers! Yes, and the whole body of the Lords and
Commons too! to let Lord Chatham, Mr. Burke, etc., for so long triumph in this
argumentum palmarium! Well, it is a mistake from top to bottom. They have been
taxed repeatedly since the Restoration, by King Charles, King William, Queen
Anne, and George II.
I think Mr. Madan is getting more and more affectionate. Res ipsa jam
reduxit in gratiam. I will be very happy to see you. I hear nothing of
Cornwall; And no news, you know, is good news.
Please tell Brother Southcote that I really like his treatise. I'm
writing something almost on the subject. I am desiring to preach at Bethnal
Green Church on Sunday evening, and I intend to publish my sermon. You can
imagine a little of the tone of the text: 'Behold, I have sinned and done
wickedness; But these sheep, what did they do?
I hope Sally is better. Peace be with you all! Goodbye! [28]
Prejudice did not intervene,
nor did Calvinism
My Journal is ready for Joseph [Joseph Bradford,
his traveling companion.] to transcribe. I wonder why we haven't heard anything
from Madeley. Of course, prejudice did not intervene, nor did Calvinism!
To your brother Charles
THIRSK, June 27, 1781.
DEAR BROTHER, -- This is the last day of my seventy-eighth year; and
(such is the power of God) I feel as if it were my twenty-eight. [The original
is endorsed by Charles, 'B[rother], July 27, 1781. Young at 28.']
My Journal is ready for Joseph [Joseph Bradford, his traveling
companion.] to transcribe. I wonder why we haven't heard anything from Madeley.
[See letter of June 10.] Of course, prejudice did not intervene, nor did
Calvinism!
I see no fault with your reply to you. But you should expect them to
respond (at least in heart), Hic nigrae succus loliginis! [Satires of Horace,
I. iv. 100: 'the juice of the black cuttlefish.'] No, perhaps they will find
out, 'You are inclined to popery!'
Next Saturday I hope to be in Epworth, the second in Boston, the third
in Sheffield. I take the opportunity of a broken year to visit those parts of
Lincolnshire which I have not seen before, only once in these twenty years.
From several I have heard recently that God has blessed his preaching.
See your vocation!
Stop working and live immediately!
Peace be with all your spirits! [29]
If the Trustees establish the Birstall House on the
Methodist plan, I will sign the deed
'If the trustees establish the Birstall house on
the Methodist plan, I will sign their deed with all my heart; but if they build
a house for a Presbyterian meeting house, I will not dare have any involvement
with it.'
To your brother Charles
ALNWICK, May 28, 1782.
DEAR BROTHER, -- The story is this: When I was at Dawgreen, near Birstall,
the trustees of Birstall brought me a deed, which they read and asked me to
sign. We discussed it for about an hour. So I gave a positive answer that 'I
wouldn't sign'; and, leaving them abruptly, he went upstairs to my room.
About noon, I preached at Horbury. In the evening I preached and met the
Society at Wakefield. [He was at Wakefield on April 10, 1780.] In the evening,
just before I went to sleep, the healers came again, turned around and left me
worried. But I don't think they can worry you. He cannot write very correctly
to Mr. Valton–'If the trustees will establish the Birstall house on the
Methodist plan, I will sign their deed with all my heart; but if they build a
house for a Presbyterian meeting house, I will not dare have any involvement
with it.' I have never sent a letter of power of attorney on such an occasion,
nor have I written in any other form than this: 'Your reception will be your
discharge.' If the executor says, 'I will not pay with such a receipt,' I will
send a letter of power of attorney.
The beginning of Rodney's account is totally old-fashioned. [News
arrived in early May of Rodney's great victory over the French Navy near the
island of Dominica on April 12.] I wonder how it got into his head. We
"win God on our side" with the continual prayer of thousands. You can
send me Cicero, Fabritius and the American War, along with the next Magazines,
to York. I hope to be ten or twelve days in Edinburgh and its environs, and
about the 17th of June in Newcastle.
Peace be with you all! Goodbye! [30]
If your opinion is correct
To his brother Carlos
BIRMINGHAM, March 22, 1783.
DEAR BROTHER CHARLES, -- If your opinion be correct, and this Epistle
was the last that the Apostle wrote before his martyrdom, it is charged with
peculiar interest, because it contains the last counsels of those who were not
behind the 'chief of the Apostles.' -- I am, dear Brother Charles,
With affection. [31]
I do not depend on the doctors, but on the One who
raises the dead
I know you have the death sentence inside you; me
too for more than twelve years. I know that nature is completely exhausted; but
is not nature subject to His word? I do not depend on the doctors, but on the
One who raises the dead
To your brother Charles
BRISTOL, March 17, 1785.
DEAR BROTHER, - I am just beginning my journey in the north; but he
needs to find time to write two or three lines. I admire the wise and gracious
dispensations of Divine Providence! Never before has there been such a loud
calling to all who are under your roof. If you have not hitherto sufficiently
considered you or the God of your fathers, what is more calculated to convince
you than to see you hovering so long on the borders of the grave. And I really
believe that if they get the warning, God will resurrect you again. I know you
have the death sentence inside you; me too for more than twelve years. I know
that nature is completely exhausted; but is not nature subject to His word? I
do not depend on the doctors, but on the One who raises the dead. Just let your
whole family stir up and pray instantly; then I have only to say to each one:
'If you can believe, you will see the glory of God.' 'Be strong in the Lord and
in the power of His might.'
Goodbye. [32]
I do not see that I have any obligation to
obey them beyond what these laws require
I have always paid some obedience to the
bishops in obedience to the laws of the land. But I do not see that I am under
any obligation to obey them beyond what these laws require.
To your brother Charles
PLYMOUTH DOCK, August 19, 1785.
DEAR BROTHER, - I will tell my thoughts in all simplicity
and wait for better information. If you agree with me, well; if not, we may (as
Mr. Whitefield used to say) agree to disagree.
During these forty years, I have doubts about this
question: 'What obedience is due to "pagan priests and mithraded
infidels"' [From Charles Wesley's 'Elegy on the Death of Robert Jones'.
See his Diary, ii. 299. From time to time I have put my doubts to the most
pious and sensible clergymen I have ever known. But they did not give me
satisfaction; In fact, they looked as confused as I was.
It is in obedience to these laws that I have never
exercised in England the power which I believe God has given me. I firmly
believe that I am a έπίσκοπος of the scriptures, as much as any man in England
or Europe; for unbroken succession I know it to be a fable, which no man has
ever made or can prove. But this in no way interferes with my permanence in the
Church of England; from which I have no more desire to part than I had fifty
years ago. I still participate in all the ordinances of the Church whenever I
can; and I constantly and sincerely desire that all who are connected with me
do so. When Mr. Smyth [the Rev. Edward Smyth.] pressed us to 'separate
ourselves from the Church,' he meant, 'Don't go to church anymore.' And that is
what I meant twenty-seven years ago, when I persuaded our brethren 'not to
separate themselves from the Church.'
But here another question arises: 'What is the Church of
England?' It is not 'all the people of England.' Papists and dissidents are not
part of it. It is not all the people of England except papists and dissenters.
Then we should have a glorious Church indeed! No; according to our twentieth
article, a particular Church is "a congregation of the faithful"
(coetus credentium, words in our Latin edition), "among whom the word of
God is preached and the sacraments duly administered." Here is a true
logical definition, containing both the essence and the properties of a Church.
What, then, according to this definition, is the Church of England? It means
'all believers in England (except the Papists and Dissenters) who have the word
of God and the sacraments duly administered among them'. I'm afraid that
doesn't fit with your idea of the 'Church of England'. Well, what else do you
include in that sentence 'Now all believers who adhere to the doctrine and
discipline established by the Convocation under Queen Elizabeth.' No, that
discipline has all but disappeared, and the doctrine to which both you and I
cling I do not mean that I will never ordain any while I am in England, but not
to use the power they receive while I am in England. [This sentence is quoted
in the manuscript Life of Benson, ii. 1388.]
All these reasons against separation from the Church, in
this sense, I still subscribe. So what are you afraid of? I am no more
separated from it now than I was in the year 1758. I still submit (though
sometimes with a doubtful conscience) to the 'mitralhated infidels'. In fact, I
differ from them on some doctrinal points and on some points of discipline –
preaching abroad, for example, praying in an improvised way and forming
societies; but not a hair beyond what I believe to be proper, right, and my obligatory
duty. I still walk by the same rule that I have followed for between forty and
fifty years. I don't do anything rash. Not likely that I should. The peak of my
blood is over. If you go hand in hand with me, do it. But don't get in my way
if it doesn't help. [Charles was not convinced. See letter of September 13.]
Maybe if you had kept the dose for me, I would have done better. However, with
or without help, I move slowly. And just as I have been until now, so I hope I
will always be,
Your affectionate friend and brother. [33]
I'm glad you can officiate
in the chapels again
I'm glad you can officiate
in the meetinghouses again. Let's wisely make the last bet
To your brother Charles
MANCHESTER, April 6, 1785.
DEAR BROTHER, I am glad that you can again officiate in the chapels.
Let's 'wisely make the last bet.' [See letter of June 27, 1755.]
For a few years, John Davis was just a mule; He did not lead or direct.
But it is enough that he has finished the course well; and we're pretty sure
Nancy Sharland did it. [See letter of November 15, 1780.]
Sammy Bradburn thought about going further with me. But the frost and
snow made him turn back. I believe that the loss of his wife will be one of the
greatest blessings he has ever known in his life. [On March 13, he took
Bradburn to travel with him. On the 2nd, in Gloucester, he proposed to Sophia
Cooke (who suggested to Raikes his Sunday School efforts), and they were
married on August 10. See the letters of February 14 and June 20.]
Mrs. Fletcher will be in no hurry to get away from Madeley, though her
light is there almost hidden under a bushel. Mr. Ireland does not help me in
regard to the writing of Mr. Fletcher's Life, 'because he intends to publish it
himself!' [He was in Madeley on March 26. See the letters of October 2 and
December 31, 1785.] Let him do it, and I'll follow him. Where is your elegy
[See letter of December 9 to Mrs. Fletcher.] You can tell like my father, in
his verses about Mr. Nelson [Robert Nelson, the Nonjuror, who did a lot to
promote schools and parish libraries. See letter of June 13, 1733, n.]
May the sacred name of friendship be sorry
The last effort of a dying muse.
Can you or I have another matter as soon as Melville Horne expects to be
ordained on Trinity Sunday?
In fact, I love the Church with the same sincerity as always; and I say
to our Societies everywhere, 'The Methodists will not leave the Church, at
least as long as I live.' I doubt whether I will partially agree with our
friends in Scotland; but I will know more and you will hear more when I see
them.
As long as I live, Dr. Coke and I will alternate through Ireland. He'll
have enough work this year with the gentle Edward Smyth. [Smyth inaugurated
Bethesda Chapel in Dublin on June 25.] I doubt Edward 'needs a rein'; But who
can put the bite in his mouth? I don't regret that his shows are over. [The
concerts performed by his sons in their father's house; Wesley attended one on
January 25, 1781. Samuel had become a Roman Catholic; the father's dream was
probably about this subject, and the text points to Wesley's hope for an
imminent restoration. See Diary, vi. 303; and letters of August 19, 1784 and
March 18, 1788 to his nephew.] Remember your dream about Sammy! 'The maiden is
not dead, but sleeps!'
Mr. Pennant I know, and Dr. Johnson I know; but I know nothing of Mr.
Boswell's Tour to the Hebrides. [Boswell's Diary of a Voyage to the Hebrides
was published in 1786.] I imagine it was worth reading. Peace be with all your
spirits! Goodbye!
letter of May 3.]
I doubt that there is not an anachronism in John Price's; if now they do
not impute to him what was done a long time ago.
My diary should have been sent several days ago, but Joseph Bradford
trusted someone else to transcribe it. [The part ready for the printer. The
1779-82 excerpt is dated to the end of 'Newington, 19 January 1786.'] This
Society prospers a lot. I hope to be here again on the 31st of the next day.
Peace be with you all! Goodbye.
One can leave a church
(which I would advise in some cases) without leaving the church
As you noted, one can leave a church (which I would advise in some
cases) without leaving the church. Here we can remain in spite of all the
wicked or Calvinistic ministers
To your brother Charles
LEEDS, May 3, 1786.
DEAR BROTHER, - If there is a man in England who understands Mrs.
Horton's case, it is Dr. Wilson. I advise John Horton to find him if he is
above ground. [Mary, daughter of Henry Durbin, a chemist at Bedminster and
preacher of Bristol, whom Wesley married John Horton, of Highbury Place,
London, September 21, 1780. Her husband was a merchant and was part of the
Common Council. He was one of the executors of Wesley's will. Mrs. Horton died
on May 26, 1786, at the age of thirty-four. Charles Wesley wrote a long poem
about his friend:
And through a flawless life expressed
The Lamb's Temperaments.
See Diary, vii. 295; C. Wesley's Journal, if. 412-18; letter of May 18,
1786; and to Dr. Andrew Wilson, October 13, 1770, to Lowes.]
I don't know if anyone opens their letters. They come to me with the
seal intact.
Commonly, when I'm in London, I'm so busy that I can't make time to go
three miles back and forth. That was the πρώτον ψεύδος, ['The first false
step.' Charles lived in Marylebone, where Mrs. Gumley had given him rent on her
house in Chesterfield Street. See letter of May 18.] To get a house for you so
far away from me, as well as for the HR of the two chapels.
I can't help it if people don't have responsibility. Seven guineas that
Patty received from me this month, plus ten or eleven that she worried me about
giving Nancy Jervas this winter. [Mrs. Hall had a small income of her own, but
she depended heavily on her brother. See Stevenson's Wesley Family, pp. 380-1.]
It's a bad dog that isn't worth whistling. In the times I was at
Bedford, Mr. Barham [Charles Wesley mentions Mr. Barham in a letter to his son
Charles of Bristol in 1782. See his Diary, ii. 273.] he never owned me, much
less invited me to his house. I don't know him if I find him. Maybe he loves me
- from a distance. Peace be with you and yours!
Please tell Brother Horton and Kemp [Richard Kemp, one of the original
trustees of City Road Chapel, had a big business as a frame knitter on
Whitecross Street. He died on September 4, 1787, at the age of sixty-six. See
Stevenson's City Road Chapel, p. 530.] I have received two letters from Mrs.
Holmes (Mr. Holmes's widow) informing me that John Price has for some time been
quite sober and very devoted to school. As a consequence, she begs strongly for
the payment of his salary.
My route is: Monday, 8, Treis; Wednesday, 10, Barnard Castle; Saturday,
13, and Wednesday, 17, Edinburgh; and Wednesday, 31, Tuesday, 23, in Aberdeen.
Goodbye. [34]
Don't stop those who can and want to
If you don't want or can't
help me personally, don't stop those who can and want to. I must and will save
as many souls as I can as long as I live, without worrying about what might
happen when I die
To your brother Charles
BATH, September 13, 1785.
DEAR BROTHER, - I don't see the point in you and I
arguing together; for neither of us is likely to convince the other. You say
that I separate myself from the Church; I say no. So leave it as it is.
Your verse is a sad truth. I see fifty times more of
England than you do, and I find few exceptions.
I believe that Dr. Coke is as free from ambition as he is
from greed. He did nothing rash that I know of; But he spoke rashly, which he
withdrew the moment I spoke to him about it. Publishing as current thoughts
what he had portrayed before was not fair. He is now as much right hand to me
as Thomas Walsh was. If you don't want or can't help me personally, don't stop
those who can and want to. I must and will save as many souls as I can while I
live, without worrying about what might happen when I die.
I pray that you will not confuse the intelligence of the
people in London. You can weaken my hands a little, but you will weaken yours a
lot. - I'm
Your affectionate brother.
[The following reply, sent by Charles on the 19th, is
given at the end of his brother's letter:]
DEAR BROTHER, - I did not say, You separate yourself from
the Church; but I said, If I could prove it, I would not prove it.
This 'sad truth' is not a new truth. You saw it when you
expressed in your Reasons such tenderness of love for the unconverted clergy.
About the second T. Walsh it was better to talk than to
write.
How they 'confuse their intellects,' how they 'weaken
their hands,' I know nothing of what I do to avoid possible separation, but I
pray. God forbid that I should sin against Him by failing to pray for the
Church of England and for you while there is still some breath in me. - I'm
Your affectionate brother. [35]
Providence allowed reckless men three miles
from me
Certainly Providence allowed imprudent men within three miles of me, who preferred to be always by my side.
To your brother Charles
NEAR EDINBURGH, MAY 18, 1786.
DEAR BROTHER, - Then Sister Horton is at peace. This may be a blessed
visit for Mr. Horton. Perhaps this will prove to be, in this case, one of the
greatest blessings he has ever received in his life. I hope you wrote to Mr.
Durbin. Alas, what use would riches be to him! [See letter of May 3.]
Certainly Providence allowed imprudent men within three miles of me, who
preferred to be always by my side. [36]
You must leave every day or die
You must leave every day or die. Don't die to save
loads.
To your brother Charles
LONDON, February 18, 1788.
DEAR BROTHER, -- You must go out every day or die. Don't die to save
loads. You certainly don't have to want anything as long as I live. Goodbye. [37]
You can see me on Thursday at Mr. Griffith's house
I don't have a free hour from four in the morning
until nine at night. But you can see me on Thursday at Mr. Griffith's, who will
come in the carriage to pick you up.
To Charles Wesley
February [20], 1788.
O consent [Charles endorses this, 'Consent to be healed, Feb. 1788.'] to
be cured! [38]
The day of God's power has come
The congregations here are surprisingly large. Indeed, the day of God's
power has come. Mr. Collins is in excellent spirits, and preaches in the chapel
To your brother Charles
BATH, March 2, 1788.
DEAR BROTHER, -- So far we have had a very prosperous journey. We were
only sixteen hours on the road. Everyone here is at peace. The little fights
that used to exist in the Society are dead and forgotten. John Broadbent
behaved extremely wisely and offended less than one could imagine. [For
Wesley's impressions of the Work, see Diary, vii. 358-9.] The congregations
here are surprisingly large. Indeed, the day of God's power has come. Mr.
Collins is in an excellent spirit, and preaches in the chapel [Brian Bury
Collins now lived in Corn Street, and often preached in Lady Huntingdon's
Vineyards Chapel.] three or four times a week. He did not stay to be invited,
but came and offered to read Prayers for me. Many ask about you and show a lot
of affection and desire to see you. At the right time! You are first suffering
God's will. Then He has a little more for you to do—provided you now take up
your cross (for that is often necessary) and go out at least an hour a day. I
wouldn't blame you even if there were two or three. Leave aside the cost; I can
make that up. You won't die to save loads. I will soon have a word for Charles
and his brother. [See letter of March 5.]
Peace be with all your spirits!
Miss Perrot [See Jackson's Charles Wesley, i, 558 - 'poor Nancy Perrot,
my companion in misery.' Mrs. Wright to C. Wesley, October 4, 1745.] is
resting; So, goodbye pain. [39]
I'm convinced you'll be just as good
I hope you keep your rule, to go out every day,
even if sometimes it's a cross. Keep at it just a month, and I'm convinced
you'll be as well as you were this time, twelve months
To your brother Charles
BRISTOL, March 5, 1788.
DEAR BROTHER, -- I hope you will keep your rule of going out every day,
even if sometimes it is a cross. Keep at it just a month, and I am convinced
that you will be as well as you were this time, twelve months.
If I dare to give you more advice, it would be this: 'Own your own
house.' If you fly, they chase. But stand firm, and you'll get your point.
[Evidently, his musician sons needed to be kept in order to rule. See the
letters of March 2 and 7.] Goodbye! [40]
The Lord gave, and the Lord took away
'The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the Lord!' If it were necessary, to serve him or you, I
would not have thought much of coming to London. In fact, serving you, or your
dear family, in all that is within my power, will always be a pleasure, dear
sister,
To Mrs. Charles Wesley
MACCLESFIELDD, Friday, April 4, 1788.
DEAR SISTER, -- Half an hour ago I received a letter from Mr. Bradburn
informing me of my brother's death. [Charles Wesley passed away on March 29.
See the April 12 letter to her.] For eleven or twelve days before, I didn't
have a single line on it. The last one I had was from Charles, who I was late
to attend, hoping to receive some additional information every day. Only now do
we need to learn that great lesson: 'The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken
away; Blessed be the name of the Lord!' If it were necessary, to serve him or
you, I would not have thought much of coming to London. In fact, serving you,
or your dear family, in all that is within my power, will always be a pleasure,
dear sister,
Your affectionate friend and brother. [41]
[1]
Overview of Google's AI Mode
[2]
Overview of Google's AI Mode
[3]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1742/
[4]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1742/
[5]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1745/
[6]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1752/
[7]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1753/
[8]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1753/
[9]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1755/
[10]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1762/
[11]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1762/
[12]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1765/
[13]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1768/
[14]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1768/
[15]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1771/
[16]
https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1772/
[17]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1772a/
[18]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1774/
[19]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1774/
[20]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[21]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1773/
[22]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1774/
[23]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[24]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[25]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[26]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[27]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[28]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1775/
[29]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1781/
[30]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1782/
[31]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1783/
[32]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[33]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[34]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1786/
[35]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[36]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[37]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1788/
[38]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[39]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[40]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
[41]https://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/the-letters-of-john-wesley/wesleys-letters-1785/
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